the nutshell
I just received two emails at the movetocanada address. Kyle Couch says:
Do you think Kyle Couch's grandparents, or great-grandparents, or great-great-grandparents, or however many generations back it goes (something tells me Kyle is not a Native American) were cowards when they left the country of their birth?
I thank Kyle Couch and all of his ilk: you make it so wonderfully easy to leave.
What are you waiting for? Get the hell out of this GREAT country. We don't need or want your cowardly attitude here.And from a Canadian:
Welcome to the true melting pot.That's it in a nutshell.
Unlock your front door, grab a cold Canadian, exchange the uh for an eh & never forget what it means to be Canadian, & that's ... & that's...... Well, the answer won't come from some loud-mouth Rocker From Toronto, Living In Montreal with his beautiful, intelligent, American wife. She moved up here under the first King George. No, it will come from fine people like you. In fact, all of the immigrants sharing their culture with the natives, making them a little more intelligent & hopefully much more tolerant.
Yes sir America's loss is once again Canada's gain baby.
Do you think Kyle Couch's grandparents, or great-grandparents, or great-great-grandparents, or however many generations back it goes (something tells me Kyle is not a Native American) were cowards when they left the country of their birth?
I thank Kyle Couch and all of his ilk: you make it so wonderfully easy to leave.
Hey, is that Kyle "I'm a loser who thinks it's cool if thousands of other Americans die or maybe have half their limbs blown off in a war I support while my fat, pasty ass remains glued to my" Couch?
ReplyDeleteI think I know that guy.
Gosh, I love unsolicited advice from total strangers. Maybe Kyle hasn't seen the countdown on the right. Dude, it's only 22 more days. Americans are so impatient!
ReplyDeleteAnd (awful current political climate aside), people need stop screaming that America is great. Putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "I can't hear you" to dissenters, stamping your little patriotic feet and telling people to get the hell out aren't exactly convincing.
Putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "I can't hear you" to dissenters, stamping your little patriotic feet and telling people to get the hell out aren't exactly convincing.
ReplyDeleteBut it's an American tradition!
I have lived for one year in the US, as an exchange student. During that year I studied American History and American Government. After this I would like to say that the US IS a great country... or at least if was. The laws and values that creates the basis of the American Society is a great one. The reality now, is far different. It seems the super capitalizm and now the reckless W administration has redused US to a joke. (In Europe americans, especially the president, is made fun of). Then you see persons like this "Kyle" clinging to the belief that his nation is flawless. L-girl, if you after so many years(because as I understand it you have lived for many many years in the US) decide to flag out, you must have good reasons... and I totally understand you. I would just like to repead what an old american friend said to me in an email lately:
ReplyDelete"man, i can't help being a little jealous that you're from norway, especially considering how things have been in the US for the past couple of years. it's an ongoing mess that doesn't show any signs of slacking up"
"never forget what it means to be Canadian, & that's ... & that's......"
ReplyDeleteBack in 1972, CBC radio personality Peter Gzowski held a contest:
If someone can be "as American as apple pie", what would complete the phrase "as Canadian as _____"?
The winning entry was from Heather Scott, a music student, whose entry was:
"As Canadian as possible under the circumstances"
I've always loved that.
The laws and values that creates the basis of the American Society is a great one. The reality now, is far different.
ReplyDeleteIt could be great country. The foundation is there. And whenever people have forced the country to live up to the foundation (or at least take a step closer), it's gotten better.
because as I understand it you have lived for many many years in the US
Born here and lived here all my life. I guess that's many many. :)
You know, I'm not trying to convince anyone else to follow my path. Yet these people feel the need to yell at me as I'm leaving. As Crabbi says, unsolicited advice from total strangers. I can't imagine popping into someone's blog or sending them an email to tell them how stupid I think they are. Although the opportunity presents itself daily.
James: what a cool quote. So subtle and understated.
Some days, I think I moved to the wrong country! Countries are only great when folks work at it, for a long long time, and just merely repeating that the country is "GREAT" isn't really going to work. Kyle, please, give it a little more thought.
ReplyDeleteI don't like jingoism, nationalism, or over-the-top patriotism; but I *do* think Canada's a great country.
ReplyDeleteYou know, I used to describe myself the same way in relation to the US. My parents, who were very liberal and highly critical of the govt, and never saw those as contradictory with patriotism. (Though they always made a distinction between patriotism and nationalism.)
I was raised to believe dissent is patriotic, and that the highest form of patriotism was to want your country to live up to its ideals - and to work towards that goal.
It's only in the last 5-10 years or so that I've turned my back on patriotism altogether, opting for a more international view.
Anyway, I'll check out that post, thanks.
and just merely repeating that the country is "GREAT" isn't really going to work.
ReplyDeleteYes! And yet that's all those types want to do. Just keep repeating the phrase "greatestcountryonthefaceoftheearth" and it shall be so.
You know, one of wmtc's most loyal and long-time readers is Kyle of the "Progressive Libertarian" blog (see blogroll), so let's not give Kyle Of The Couch too much ink, people may get them confused.
So teflonjedi, why did you move to the US? Work-related?
Yup, work-related...wanted to work, and todo what I do, and there's not many places of employment which do what I do.
ReplyDeleteI'd give it all up, if there was a way for me to take over for Rick Steves...
I'd give it all up, if there was a way for me to take over for Rick Steves...
ReplyDeleteI can relate. I live to travel. The hardest part of saving money for our big move has been not traveling.
James, thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
I'm still trying to figure out what part of your journey Kyle deems to be cowardly? I mean, wasn't the USA founded by people who just didn't fit in with the repressive nation of their birth? Granted, the pilgrims were a bunch of religious nutbars...but an interesting comparison, regardless.
ReplyDelete"I mean, wasn't the USA founded by people who just didn't fit in with the repressive nation of their birth?"
ReplyDeleteNot quite. Most of the original colonies were founded by religious groups who were tired of getting persecuted, and wanted a chance to set up a place where they were top dog and everyone *else* would get persecuted. With one or two exceptions, they each had a state-sanctioned flavour of Christianity, and all other religions and denominations were illegal -- or, at least, highly suspect.
What James says doesn't make what AndyM says any less true. The colonies were founded by people escaping repressive policies - and of course by people looking to exploit the resources of a new land.
ReplyDeleteLater those one or two exceptions of religious tolerance became an example, and they were emulated.
Granted, the pilgrims were a bunch of religious nutbars
LOL :)
I'm still trying to figure out what part of your journey Kyle deems to be cowardly?
ReplyDeleteYou know, I never get this either. Either it's one of those empty expressions that really has no meaning, or I am missing something. I wish someone would explain it, but these types never stick around to chat.
"Later those one or two exceptions of religious tolerance became an example, and they were emulated."
ReplyDeleteIn principal, yes, but in practice only up to a point. The tradition still exists unofficially. Consider Bush I's famous 1987 quote:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Good thing he wasn't in charge, eh?
In principal, yes, but in practice only up to a point.
ReplyDeleteNo, that's not true. As a Jew and an atheist who has lived in the US all my life, I can tell you that the US really does have religious freedom. I may feel alienated and uncomfortable at times, because I am a minority, but I am free to worship or not as I see fit. In theory and in practice.
The quote above is one man's opinion, and even though that man was president, it doesn't change anything. In reality there really is religious freedom in the US.
"You know, one of wmtc's most loyal and long-time readers is Kyle of the "Progressive Libertarian" blog (see blogroll), so let's not give Kyle Of The Couch too much ink, people may get them confused."
ReplyDeleteThanks! I wouldn't want to associated with him just because of my name....
On the subject of religion, I say it's not the religion itself, but some of it's legends that permeate the American mind. Everone knows the old story from the Bible (or Torah or Koran, depending on your viewpoint) about how Moses led his people from persecution and slavery in Egypt to the chosen land of Israel. Many of the early pilgrims to America, especially the Puritans, felt they we're in a renactment of that old story, and they were being led by God to a new chosen land. It's an idea that's stuck in American culture, that somehow America and its people are more special than everyone else.
It's an idea that's stuck in American culture, that somehow America and its people are more special than everyone else.
ReplyDeleteAmerican exceptionalism, manifest destiny - it sure is stuck in American culture!
I should add that many Jews grow up with the same idea, from the same root - the chosen people. My father used to say, chosen for what, suffering?
G. Gordon Liddy was born in 1930. Never mind F.O.I.L.; come 2021 he'll be lucky if he can S.O.I.L. his pyjamas. If the guy will still be alive and able to mount a motorcycle in 2021, then I want my cyanide-flavoured Captain Crunch right now.
ReplyDeleteI am reminded of the independent comics in the 80's featuring Ronald Reagan and his freedom commandoes. It was hard to tell what was satire and what wasn't some days.
ReplyDeleteKung-Fu Monkey's rant is excellent, btw. Anyone getting this far down who didn't check the link should do so.
What exactly is an "ultra-liberal extremist", anyway? Someone who makes you smoke pot while forcing you to have an abortion? Honest to God, do they even think this stuff through, or is the ability to slap latinate forms together into something euphonious enough?
ReplyDeleteDear Mr Kyle Couch
ReplyDeleteA man is the sum of his fears.
Thats It Thats all
Please forward to your leaders
What exactly is an "ultra-liberal extremist", anyway?
ReplyDeleteOutside the US, I think they're known as "centrists" and like to oppress freedom-lovers by collecting taxes to finance their depraved sewage systems, postal services, and fire departments. Oh sure, you're less likely to die of typhus, but at what cost? AT WHAT COST?
"What exactly is an "ultra-liberal extremist", anyway?
ReplyDeleteOutside the US, I think they're known as "centrists"..."
I still get very disoriented when I hear someone ranting about how Hillary Clinton's a left-wing extremist. Up here, she's probably be called a Tory. :)
Up here, she's probably be called a Tory. :)
ReplyDeleteI'd vote for her.
As a Texan, I can relate to the Houston atheist's concerns. I haven't personally had any nasty experiences by being an open nonbeliever, but I've known of people who were hounded out of jobs for not being Christian, let alone atheist. One woman, an agnostic, told us at an organizing meeting that after the attacks of 9/11, dozens of her coworkers, who she thought considered her a friend, sent her hateful, threatening emails telling her that the reason the attacks happened was because people like her refused to "believe on Jesus". Don't know how common that is, but she was pretty stunned by it.
ReplyDeleteG. Gordon Liddy was born in 1930. Never mind F.O.I.L.; come 2021 he'll be lucky if he can S.O.I.L. his pyjamas.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly is an "ultra-liberal extremist", anyway? Someone who makes you smoke pot while forcing you to have an abortion?
LOL!! You are really on a roll. This is hilarious, thank you for a much-needed laugh.
As a Jew and an atheist who has lived in the US all my life, I can tell you that the US really does have religious freedom.
ReplyDeleteMore than most places, certainly, and in some parts of the US, as much as you could want. But not everywhere. The blog "Atheist Exposed" ...
I have definitely hesitated before saying I am an atheist, and have internally cringed as I said "I'm Jewish..." But I'm drawing a distinction between policy, practice and individual tolerance.
Many people in the US are intolerant of other's beliefs or nonbeliefs, there's no doubt about that. But to me, there is also no doubt that people are legally and institutionally free to practice their religion or not.
This doesn't mean an employer never violates an employee's rights, or that's it's not difficult to be different. I just can't sign off on the idea that the US doesn't have religious freedom. It's too much of an exaggeration for me. Things are bad enough here, but that's not in the picture (in my opinion).
I still get very disoriented when I hear someone ranting about how Hillary Clinton's a left-wing extremist. Up here, she's probably be called a Tory. :)
ReplyDeleteReal progressives down here call her the same thing. It is absolutely astounding the way the wingnuts hate her, the venom they reserve for her - and the left-wing claims they make for her.
Sexism? Nah!
It'd be interesting to see an out atheist run for a prominent political office in the US sometime. Though I doubt that they'd actually get far enough along in the process to actually show up in the race.
ReplyDeleteYou'll never see it in your lifetime. (Assuming you're talking about national office, not NYC or SF or Madison, WI.)
But this is true of any difference. US political leaders are overwhelmingly white, male, Protestant and heterosexual. This has changed only in the most token of ways. Christianity is just part of the package.
The Canadian: cool post. Good on ya.
ReplyDeleteWrye: thanks for reminding me, I will read Kung Fu Monkey's post more carefully and maybe blog about it.
I'd say personally I'm agnostic, not an atheist. But there's real debate on that terminology. I don't know if there is a god, or gods, ghosts, demons, or Q from Star Trek, but I can't say I know there is none either.
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify, being an atheist does not mean I know there is no god. It means I personally don't believe in any. There's a big difference (which is perhaps the debate on terminology that you refer to, Kyle - I'm not sure).
I don't claim to know. I only know what I believe and what I feel. I wish others would be a little less sure, too.
"I just can't sign off on the idea that the US doesn't have religious freedom."
ReplyDeleteWell, I wouldn't claim the US doesn't have religious freedom, only that the religious freedom in the US is more limited in practice than it is in principle.
"which is perhaps the debate on terminology that you refer to, Kyle"
There are a few different definitions of atheist that are used: the negative "I don't believe in any gods" (yours) and the positive "I belive there aren't any gods" are the two favourites.
Both those definitions of atheist apply to me. Either way, I wouldn't claim to know. That is just too arrogant.
ReplyDeleteIt's also a simple personal statement: a-theist = without religion.
Practice or principle, I don't think anyone's religious freedom is limited in the US. But I do think it's a difference of definition here. I'm not including individual people's tolerance or personal dislikes within the definition of freedom. I'm thinking institutionally. Your neighbors might not like your choices, but you're still free to worship or not as you choose.
Kyle,
ReplyDeleteI found a link to that comic this weekend. Bizarre stuff.
... "Coulter laws" and a young leader named Reagan born on 9/11/01.
Oy.
Well, Texas is "like a whole other country", as they often say.
ReplyDeleteSometimes they even say that about Canada. :)
It is absolutely astounding the way the wingnuts hate her, the venom they reserve for her - and the left-wing claims they make for her. Sexism? Nah!
ReplyDeleteOh, yeah, there's no question they go after her as a girl who's gotten too big for her britches and who ought to be happy to stand behind Bill, smiling. It's amazing that twenty years after Margaret Thatcher (may her heart of coal be cursed forever) was Prime Minister of the UK, women in the US are still having such a rough time getting established politically.
there are atheistic religions as well. Probably the best known would be certain forms of Buddhism, which deny the existence of any dieties.
ReplyDeleteWhile I understand this might technically, linguistically correct, since Buddhism is a religion, most people would not consider a Buddhist an atheist.
(And of course people may question why I am Jewish and an atheist, though to me being Jewish is an ethnicity and cultural identity, which I can retain regardless of not practicing the religion... though many Jews disagree! :) )
Recently a court in North Carolina ruled that swearing in *must* be done on a Bible. No other holy book would do.
Again, I don't consider this an infringement on freedom of religion. No one is forced to practice Christianity, or forbidden to practice other religions. Christians are not given special privileges that non-Christians are denied. Non-Christians are full citizens. Etc.
There are huge issues around separation of church and state - why are we swearing on a holy book in the first place?? I hate that! - but that's a different issue, to me.
The Wiccan issue is a problem. A small minority religion certainly has problems being recognized as legitimate. I do see that.
why are we swearing on a holy book in the first place?? I hate that! -
ReplyDeleteMe, too. Suppose that book means nothing to me. Does that mean I get to lie? If I'm ever called to court, I will be bringing my own book, which presents a whole other dilemma - which one?
"And of course people may question why I am Jewish and an atheist, though to me being Jewish is an ethnicity and cultural identity"
ReplyDeleteI don't think people understand that being Jewish is different than being Christian or Muslim. Jews are a people, and Judaism is the religion of the Jews. I took a Jewish history class in University (I needed something to fill an elective, and it fit in my timetable). Actually, it was an interesting course. Apparently, Jews originally didn't believe in the definition of monotheism as they do today. YHVH was the God of Israel, just like Osiris and such were the Egyptian gods. However, when Israel was conquered (by I can't quite remember who), they couldn't accept the fact that YHVH could have been defeated. At that point, they started believing in YHVH as the one and only God, which was a way to explain how Israel could have been defeated.
For those who don't know YHVH is pronounced "Yah-wey", but it's supposed to be a sin to say it out loud.
ReplyDeleteIf I'm ever called to court, I will be bringing my own book, which presents a whole other dilemma - which one?
ReplyDeleteMaybe something by Clarence Darrow. He was dynamite in court, and an avowed atheist. He said, "I don't believe in god, because I don't believe in Mother Goose."
Darrow was a hero of mine growing up, when I thought I wanted to be a lawyer.
Kyle, cool history, I bet it was an interesting course.
ReplyDeleteResearching my ancient civilizations book, I learned that when the Israelites (a/k/a Hebrews) adopted monotheism, how much it set them apart from the other people of the time, how attacked they were for it. It started early... :/
I had known about this from Hebrew school, but the historical perspective was different.
"Jews originally didn't believe in the definition of monotheism as they do today. YHVH was the God of Israel, just like Osiris and such were the Egyptian gods."
ReplyDeleteThat's henotheism: essentially, belief in tribal gods. Yahweh was the god of the Hebrews, while next door there were the tribes belonging to gods like Baal, Asherah, Moloch, and so on. "You shall have no other gods before me" meant "you'll worship me out of this crowd", not "there aren't any others".
It was during the Babylonian Exile that the Hebrews changed from henotheism to monotheism, possibly because of exposure to Babylonian religious practises (IIRC, the Babylonians believed in power-of-good god and a power-of-evil god, sort of like the God/Satan pairing).
>Maybe something by Clarence Darrow.
ReplyDeleteI was going to say the screenplay of Inherit the Wind. Who would have thought a few years ago that the possibility of another Scopes trial would be even a remote possibility? It's like we're de-evolving or something.
James, you are welcome to blather here any time. It's a great topic, and you're clearly very knowledgeable.
ReplyDeleteThe creeping (marching?) Christianity entwined with govt in the US is deeply disturbing. If you look in the wmtc archives, I have various posts called things like "theocracy," "more theocracy," "yet more theocracy," and other (un)imaginative titles.
"James, you are welcome to blather here any time. It's a great topic, and you're clearly very knowledgeable."
ReplyDeleteThanks. I do tend to go on (and on) when I'm on a subject that interests me...
"The creeping (marching?) Christianity entwined with govt in the US is deeply disturbing."
Very deeply. And the sad thing is how much it's enabled by many US citizen's ignorance of their own history. How widely known is it these days that the "under God" bit in the Pledge of Allegiance -- and the "In God We Trust" on the money -- are only about fifty years old? (Not to mention that the author of the Pledge was an avowed socialist!) It always seems to surprise religious Americans when I point that out.
Oh, one other example of institutional religious discrimination: the Constitutions of Texas, Massachusettes, Maryland, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and Tennessee all deny atheists or agnostics the right to hold public office.
Here's Article 1, Section 4 from the Texas Constitution:
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."
So... "No religious test" immediately followed by a religious test.
Though, I suppose that one could, as an atheist, acknowledge, say, Isaac Asimov as a Supreme Being... :)
"If you look in the wmtc archives, I have various posts called things like "theocracy," "more theocracy," "yet more theocracy," and other (un)imaginative titles."
Hey, it doesn't hurt to hammer home the point. :)