worse than china?
According to Pew Foundation survey, many Europeans have a more favorable view of China than of the US. Brief article here, and the actual survey results and analysis at Pew Global.
Thanks, you-know-who. Yes, I had seen it, but everything's a blur right now and you help me focus.
Thanks, you-know-who. Yes, I had seen it, but everything's a blur right now and you help me focus.
I find this the most interesting point...
ReplyDelete"At the same time, substantial numbers also associate Americans with the negative traits "greedy" and "violent." Canadians, who presumably have the greatest contact with Americans, agree with Europeans on the negatives, but are less likely to view Americans as honest. And Canada is the only Western nation in which a majority regards Americans as rude."
ALPF
We get much more American news coverage as well. I remember when I was a kid growing up in Nova Scotia and we first got cable. Our NBC and ABC feeds came from Bangor, Maine which was, of course, pretty tame, but our CBS feed came from Detroit. Man, that was an eye-opener. It was newsworthy if a day went by without a murder.
ReplyDeleteOh I can imagine. If I'm estimating your age correctly, Detroit was coming apart at the seams, as were most American cities.
ReplyDeleteOf course there are murders every day in all American cities. Americans are so accustomed to it that they don't even notice it anymore. Which is utterly insane.
Yeah, this would have been late 70's. One of the first big news items I remember was the Iranian hostage crisis.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I thought. The late 70s, a lovely time for American cities...
ReplyDeleteCool, thanks David! Is Noah going to work with you today?
ReplyDeleteThat is one great thing about working from home. Every day is take your dogs to work day. Actually it's more like take your work to dogs.
On Yankee manners ...
ReplyDeleteThe Canadian viewpoint on this stems less from American travellers, and more from Canadian experiences travelling in America.
We have a certain culture, for the most part, in Canada, where holding the door for someone behind you, or someone coming in with their arms full, saying please, saying thank you, offering to help people carrying heavy loads, or many bags, etc etc etc, have become second nature to many of us. Those just seem the right things to do.
Yet we travel to America, and we don't see it as much. From personal experience I can say strangers do not offer help as often, in traffic we see the middle finger accompanied by yelling more than the kind "wave-ahead", and people don't seem to smile at each other on the streets unless they know each other. I've said thank you and gotten no response, or held a door and gotten a strange stare. Now, this is obviously not a generalization or all-encompassing, but fact is I have seen the ignore-all-strangers approach MUCH more in the US than the interact-with-strangers approach I've seen in Canada.
Maybe it's just the culture that comes with a large population. Or with some city conditions where crimes are higher than what we have up here. I can see a distrust being borne of that, certainly.
The one thing, though, that Canadians always notice, is how Americans visiting up here are always remarking with wonder at how nice everyone is. One of the Canuck stereotypes no one up here minds. It's a great compliment, especially since we're just doing what we've always done - acknowledging a stranger as another human being. It's part of what is really cool about living here - people are made to feel welcome, for the most part (again not all-encompassing, we have our assholes as does everywhere).
I agree that is probably the biggest difference I notice in most American cities... Although in some cities i feel right at home. Just went to San Francisco and it was very much like home. Can't say the same about LA.
ReplyDeletePeter
The Canadian viewpoint on this stems less from American travellers, and more from Canadian experiences travelling in America.
ReplyDeleteWe have a certain culture, for the most part, in Canada, where holding the door for someone behind you, or someone coming in with their arms full, saying please, saying thank you, offering to help people carrying heavy loads, or many bags, etc etc etc, have become second nature to many of us. Those just seem the right things to do.
Yet we travel to America, and we don't see it as much.
Yes, I've heard this many times - and it absolutely amazes me. Because even in New York, the least friendly city I've ever been in, everyone holds doors for each other and the like. People give up their seats on public transportation for elderly people or pregnant women. All that kind of thing.
In my travels in the US, I encounter helpful and friendly people way, way more often than that. Yet I always hear it's not the case.
Now, New Yorkers always talk about having to be more friendly to strangers outside of our motherland. I always have to adjust to the level of chit-chat (eg, with the cashier at a supermarket) outside of New York. I personally dislike it, and am relieved to return to the quick anonymity of NYC business transactions. A simple hello and thank you is enough for me.
I also agree with all the Americans who say "Canadians are so nice". That has been my observation as well.
But the manners thing... I just don't get it. I can't say I found people in Canada to have better public manners than people anywhere I've been in the US.
It may well be the "strangers outside our motherland" thing.
ReplyDeleteCertainly what I wrote above is not all-encompassing, and the experiences I've had as a traveller may well be because of just that: I was a traveller. As such, we don't go everywhere, see everything, meet everyone. So stereotypes get formed. Of couse, when many travellers start saying the same things, you've got to wonder - how are we missing all the great, wonderful people?
But I think it really is the traveller thing, and the motherland thing. An American can always spot a non-American, just as a New Yorker can always tell a non-New Yorker right away. And that may be what it is - the apprehension that perhaps comes with the "not one of us" realization playing out via interactions.
Maybe it's the case that in the US that apprehension shows itself moreso than in Canada, where we feel it, shrug, and don't care to let it bother us. I don't know. I'm reaching a bit here, because I know what you write in your comment above is absolutely true (I've heard the same thing from other US-based friends) and I wonder why it is I haven't seen it myself in my own travels. Strange ... but maybe that has something to do with it. Honestly, I don't know.
But the manners thing... I just don't get it. I can't say I found people in Canada to have better public manners than people anywhere I've been in the US.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with this completely. My experience is that Americans are every bit as polite as Canadians. What's more, I find Canadians are getting less polite all the time. Montrealers, for example, are among the surliest people you are ever likely to meet. I have travelled extensively in the US, all through the Northeast and middle Atlantic states, Florida, California, Colorado and Montana and I can honestly say, I have never had a single unpleasant experience that didn't involve a border guard.
I use the "Motherland" expression only as a joke, because New York feels so different than most of the US.
ReplyDeleteOf course all generalizations have their exceptions, and everyone makes generalizations when they travel. But allowing for that, I've heard this polite Canadian / impolite American from so many people, I don't doubt it's a common observation. I just don't get it myself.
Well, here is one more thing on which I agree with Rob! :)
You better get used to it if you're going to hang around with Canadian lefties. They hate Americans. They say they don't. They say they only hate Bush and his policies, but I used to be one, I know what they really think. They never met a single negative American stereotype they didn't embrace.
ReplyDeleteYou better get used to it if you're going to hang around with Canadian lefties. They hate Americans. They say they don't. They say they only hate Bush and his policies, but I used to be one, I know what they really think.
ReplyDeleteMmm, interesting. So this might be a manifestation of the anti-Americanism I've heard so much about. Although G is not a "lefty" and he's not anti-American, but I take your point.
You all know I'm pretty anti-American myself! I have certainly cringed from Ugly Americans abroad and tried to dissociate from them.
Perhaps once I live up there, I'll find a more substantial difference between American and Canadian people - or perhaps not. I'll let you know.
It's a continuum up here, the more leftist you are, the more anti-American you are. And don't let anyone bulls**t you about it being all about Bush. Canadian leftists were bashing the US when GWB was still a draft-dodging frat boy in the Alabama National Guard.
ReplyDeleteHow do you define anti-American?
ReplyDeleteI mean, that's a rather vauge term.
It can range from the "burn-the-infidel" to "American's are dumb" to "I disagree with the American government", etc.
And why are Americans special? After all, if you know any Europeans they'll say the British are prudes, the Italians are lazy, and the Germans are cold, the French are arrogant, etc., but everyone takes it in stride. They don't complain about "anti-British", "anti-French", etc.
Everyone is just jealous of us. Oh yeah, they hate our freedoms, too. And our Internets. Plus, we saved everyone's asses in WWII, and we're saving the world from tyranny yet again, so people need to just shut up.
ReplyDeleteWow, it's shockingly easy to be an ugly American. And kind of fun, actually. Thinking is hard.
And why are Americans special? After all, if you know any Europeans they'll say the British are prudes, the Italians are lazy, and the Germans are cold, the French are arrogant, etc., but everyone takes it in stride. They don't complain about "anti-British", "anti-French", etc.
ReplyDeleteCanadian word association:
Arrogant -> American
Violent -> American
Rude -> American
Stupid -> American
Ignorant -> American
Greedy -> American
Intolerant -> American
Europeans spread their prejudice around, Canadians reserve it all for Americans (Canadian leftists, that is).
But they're our only neighbor. We don't have anybody else to whine about.
ReplyDeleteMexicans (well, actually pretty much the whole world) also say similar things about Americans, but people don't seem to be as uptight about it. I'm not trying to excuse it, but I'm just trying to figure out why it's an extra special crime when Canadians say it. Is it because we're far more similar to them than anybody else is, so it's extra-hypocritical when we complain? Or is it just because it's the total opposite of our nice-guy stereotype?
"but people don't seem to be as uptight about it. I'm not trying to excuse it, but I'm just trying to figure out why it's an extra special crime when Canadians say it. "
ReplyDeleteWell, Americans don't care what people think of them - which I grant you can be part of the problem. But it's healthy, too. I've said here many times, I don't know why Canadians care so much what people think of them.
L-girl on iPAQ
"I don't think it's any worse if Canadians are bigots than if Mexicans are bigots. ..."
ReplyDeleteRob is right. Stereotypes are a form of bigotry. As much as I hate what the US govt has done, and I'm not at all proud of the country's history, ordinary people are pretty much the same everywhere.
L-girl
"If I don't condemn Mexican bigots, well, it's not my place to do so. I am Canadian, so I condemn Canadian bigotry and hypocrisy. I'm sure there are Mexicans saying the same things in Mexico."
ReplyDeleteYour right, I probably just don't hear those Mexican voices, so I assume it's a Canadian thing.
The other question is what is being anti-American? I think that's a subjective, and overused term. It seems to be applied from situations where's there's absolute hatred (such as Osama Bin Laden) to merely having your own opinion on how things should be done (i.e. disagreeing with Bush is "anti-American").
The other question is what is being anti-American?
ReplyDeleteRight, you asked that before, and it is a good question.
Being anti-Bush should certainly not mean being anti-American, especially when there is such fierce opposition to him in the US. Some people will always fall into that trap, others will know better and separate the two.
On a separate note, and indulging in a generalization here, I have trouble imaginging Mexicans being mean or negative to anyone. I have never met a Mexican person who was anything but friendly and polite. Dare I say it, even more so than Canadians!
Right, what she said.
ReplyDeleteI have never met a Mexican person who was anything but friendly and polite. Dare I say it, even more so than Canadians!
ReplyDeleteI believe that. We talk a good game, but it's just that, talk. Canadians are smug and self-righteous. We wear our humility like a badge of honour. Quite frankly, I'm surprised anybody likes us.
I think hate is too strong a term.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, as for Mexicans I do know they say Americans are smug, impolite, they don't care for their children, etc. My Uncle lived in Mexico, and two of my cousins are Mexican-American-Canadian (Mexican mother, Candian father, born in Texas). But they'd never say it to Americans in their face, that would be rude. Canadians wouldn't either, but the lack of a language barrier means Americans can hear us talking behind their backs.
However Rob, look at the stereotypes you've been throwing around about other Canadians such as Ontarians and Easterners (even though you're actually an Easterner yourself).
I'm going to be sterotypical and say that Albertans seem overly sensitive to stereotypes, whereas Ontarians seem to not care what Albertans call us. It's a minature version of the Canadian-American thing. Albertans call Ontarians smug and self centered (as do all other Canadians), and Ontarians don't care, nor are particularly offended.
when I was a kid growing up in Nova Scotia and we first got cable. Our NBC and ABC feeds came from Bangor, Maine which was, of course, pretty tame, but our CBS feed came from Detroit.
ReplyDeleteWow, Rob, you must be a lot younger than me. When I left Nova Scotia in 1980, we still didn't have CBS. We only had NBC and ABC out of Bangor, PBS out of Boston, and ATV and the English and French CBC stations. That was it. I remember being jealous of my cousins in Ontario and Quebec because they were getting Saturday morning stuff I wasn't, like Valley of the Dinosaurs. :)
You better get used to it if you're going to hang around with Canadian lefties. They hate Americans.
ReplyDeleteWhereas the conservative types hate Canada, and want to be Americans. They're just too ashamed to be really open about it most of the time; they do it in creepy, krypto-subversive ways. Like voting for Brian Mulroney. :)
Get ready for them, too. The sycophantic saccharin's going to get galling for someone who left the States because she didn't feel it suited her convictions anymore. You're going to be offended by lefties giving you backhanded praise by attacking the US, and Tories 'jokingly' questioning either your morals or your sanity.
It's going to be a fun ride. :)
If you say "George W. Bush is a warmonger", that's not anti-Americanism. If you say "Americans are warmongers", that is anti-Americanism.
ReplyDeleteGeorge W. Bush didn't personally invade Iraq, Rob. He had some help. A lot of help. From tens of millions of voters. He didn't invade Panama, or Grenada, or Vietnam. He didn't take over half of Mexico's territory in a trumped-up war. He didn't overthrow Iran's government in the 50s, or South Vietnam's in the 60s, or Chile's in the 70s. If the shoe fits, wear it. Now not every American deserves to wear that shoe, but whole lot of them do, and that's why so much of the world is at odds with them, and (dare I presume) that's why Laura is taking the extraordinary step of moving country. This is deep water in American culture, and that's a fact. It's not "anti-American" to say that. It's pro-humanity to say that.
Laura says Americans don't care what the world thinks, but I can't imagine anything further from the truth. Americans shout their glories from the rooftops in every song, every TV show, every movie: we are the way! They listen for the echo, the praise, and are perplexed and hurt by the silence. Worse, there is fault finding and criticism, aspersions and suspicions! This must matter. Why would they be tracking how they're thought of, year after year after year, in dozens of countries, if they weren't intensely worried about being admired? The problem is, this need for external validaion doesn't lead to changes when it fails to materialize... rather, it seems to result in sullen ad hominem attacks on critics (witness "freedom fries"). America is indeed a jealous god.
I appreciate what you say above, LP, especially the reading of US history, with which I heartily concur.
ReplyDeleteBut I think you misread Americans' self-congratulatory UScentrism. Except for the liberals and leftists who are hugely embarrassed by the Bush brand of patriotism, I've never met an American who gives a flying f*ck about what anyone else in the world thinks of them. They don't even understand why they should care. The idea of "squandering good will" doesn't resonate. We don't need your stinking good will! We're cowboys!
It's similar, in a way, to how New Yorkers feel about how the rest of the US dislikes us. We don't give a shit. And if we do, it's only to feed off it.
Tracking how people think of anything is an industry now, everyone does it. It can also be a display of egotism. But most Americans don't pay attention to those surveys. They don't think the rest of the world "counts" enough to care what they think.
In the post-WWII era, the US took on a responsibility no one else would or could, namely, to prevent the USSR from establishing communism as the Third World's government model of choice. In hindsight, we now see that the Soviet Union was not as big a threat as we thought, but considering the stakes, they had to err on the side of caution. They made some mistakes along the way and some of them were pretty big, but I'd bet the world would be a very different place (and not for the better) if the US just kept to itself and never became involved in any of those conflicts you now sit in judgement over.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, we Conservatives love Canada, far more than you give us credit for. We love the Canada that built the railways, that "built the mines, the mills and the factories for the good of us all". We love the Canada that fought at Vimy Ridge and Dieppe and Juno Beach, the Canada that stood for things like duty, loyalty, self-sacrifice. We hate what Canada is becoming, small, irrelevent, smug, selfish and decadent.
"In hindsight, we now see that the Soviet Union was not as big a threat as we thought, but considering the stakes, they had to err on the side of caution."
ReplyDeleteExactly what they say now about terrorism. Another bogeyman to use as a smokescreen as people are murdered to protect US business interests. How many will die this time before "the mistakes" are called off?
The US backed any dictatorship, no matter how brutal, as long as they weren't communist. Enabling fascism is nothing to be proud of.
L-girl
Perhaps not, but if the choice is between a brutal dictatorship you have some influence over vs. one you have no influence over, you choose the former. I'm not saying every action the US undertook in the Cold War was honourable, often economic self-interest was more important. But I think condemning everything the US did is just as irrational as defending everything.
ReplyDelete"But I think condemning everything the US did is just as irrational as defending everything."
ReplyDeletePutting aside the debate about US history, I do agree with you here. My only problem with the left in general is everything is America's fault - as if no one else has an agenda and can do harm. (Which is unintentionally dissing the other people involved.)
I think it's a reaction to the love-it-or-leave -it crowd, who act as if the US can do no wrong. But it's equally irrational, and progressives should know better.
L-girl
Laura, you are certainly more reasonable than most leftwingers I know. ;)
ReplyDeleteI will be away for awhile starting tomorrow. Don't think I'm avoiding you all, I'm just visiting the family back in Nova Scotia. Ciao!
Wow, I missed out on a great conversation here.
ReplyDeleteOn leftism:
Actually, L-G, as much as I try to stay in the middle, I do lean to the left more than I usually care to admit. Only admitting it now because it's 1AM and I have a case of beer in me. God I love Fridays, and Saturdays, and, well, hell, all days of the week ...
On bigotry:
I have problems with stereotyping automatically equalling bigotry. Everything I've written on what I personally feel RE the US is from personal experience. Does that make me a bigot, that I write that each time I've been there I've felt it was less polite than what I was used to in Canada? Or is what I write OK because I didn't use the term "rude"? Hey, saying that and what I wrote are the same damn thing, so if that makes me a bigot, then I offer no apologies. My experiences were what they were, but I also have US friends from whom I've seen a different side. Unfortunately, I've not yet seen that in the majority in my experiences - I hope that someday I do. I don't generalize that "all are this" or "all are that" - haven't met all, so I can't make those claims. The people who do are idiots. Plain and simple. Each time I hear it, I ask them how many Americans they've actually met, versus what limited bit they've seen on TV news. And that's coming from a guy who's experiences haven't been great. Guess it means I still hold out hope that the stereotype is just that, a stereotype only. Never said there wasn't hope to be held out. :-)
PS You, redsock, crabbi, and others in America whom I've had the privilege to 'meet' via the blogging forum help to keep that hope (the one that says the stereotype is wrong) alive. Thanks for that. :-)
ReplyDelete- G
Ah-ha, G outs himself as a lefty! ;-)
ReplyDeleteStereotyping doesn't make a person a bigot, and you are obviously not a bigot! I definitely was not implying that.
People who rely on a tiny sample size (or worse, on absolutely no personal experience whatsoever, just what "they heard") and then generalize to an entire people - that's a different story.
But all of us, certainly myself included, generalize and use stereotypes to an extent. We have to in order to form opinions. Hey, there are positive stereotypes, too. Above, I said nice things about Mexican people. But if I say Mexicans are warm, generous, friendly, genuine people, which has been my experience - that's a generalization, too.
The question becomes how open one's mind is, how malleable one's opinions. How pre-formed (pre-judged) one's mind is.
Am I babbling? I'm still on my first cup of coffee.
I will be away for awhile starting tomorrow. Don't think I'm avoiding you all, I'm just visiting the family back in Nova Scotia. Ciao!
ReplyDeleteBye Rob, have fun!
PS You, redsock, crabbi, and others in America whom I've had the privilege to 'meet' via the blogging forum help to keep that hope (the one that says the stereotype is wrong) alive. Thanks for that. :-)
Hooray for the blogosphere! Communities form, generalizations are broken, hope is kept alive. Yay and double yay.
we Conservatives love Canada, far more than you give us credit for. We love the Canada that built the railways, that "built the mines, the mills and the factories for the good of us all". We love the Canada that fought at Vimy Ridge and Dieppe and Juno Beach, the Canada that stood for things like duty, loyalty, self-sacrifice. We hate what Canada is becoming, small, irrelevent, smug, selfish and decadent.
ReplyDeleteSo you love the Canada that had five million people in it and was basically something Britain brought along to parties (wars, conferences, Grand Imperial Poobah Parades) and refused entry or citizenship to anyone who wasn't white, including the Natives... but you don't like the Canada of 32 million, member of the G8 and UN, noted and respected, by the nations we ourselves admire, for our stands on Apartheid, immigration, and equality; a land that attracts a quarter of a million newcomers every year. Well I'd like to think this new Canada you despise is still Juno Beach-capable, without being Chinese Exclusion Act-capable. I think we'd separated a lot of wheat from chaffe over the years, and will continue to do so.
Perhaps not, but if the choice is between a brutal dictatorship you have some influence over vs. one you have no influence over, you choose the former.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds good in the civics textbooks. The reality is often different. You sound like you're out of the 50s, Rob. "Communist" isn't defined by having horns and a forked tail. In some cases, collectivization after centuries of feudal life was the only way a society was going to get ahead. For example, do you really think Cubans were better off under Batista than they are under Castro?
Well, both sides were a little out to lunch. After all, they were both ready to nuke humanity out of existence over which ideology created a better society.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of people's opinions of Americans, the latest post from Zeynep Toufe at www.underthesamesun.org ("What Did the American People Know and When Did They Know It?") covers her responses to the disillusionment people are expressing to her about the American people as she attends the World Tribunal on Iraq in Istanbul. Her carefully considered responses to criticisms of Americans reminds me of a former neighbor of mine here in Austin, a German woman, who said that whenever she went back to Germany for a visit and people found out where she was living, the first thing they did was assume that she, like around 50% of Americans, voted for Bush (she didn't) and the second thing they did was criticize her for it: "How could you vote for that criminal?!!" She would usually try to explain something about the media and the rich and all the wannaberich people or something. Totally futile when the press in Europe has reports about US soldiers gleefully torturing and killing Arabs. But, anyway, Zeynep's post is worth a look.
ReplyDelete"A woman in the UK who I used to email with occasionally - not a close friend, but still someone who knew my views - stopped communicating with me after the invasion. She said she didn't want anything to do with Americans. I was amazed"
ReplyDeleteHence the "we move to Canada", not "we move to Europe".
You might get occasionally questioned as to why anyone would have elected Bush (which is a question you obviously can't answer, since I don't think the American left understands why anyone elected Bush either).
Then again maybe not. I'm working on a project right now that's being done in conjunction with one of my company's sattelite offices in the NYC area. We've never mentioned any politics with them, either inside or outside of work. We all know it's an unwritten rule never to discuss politics with Americans that you need to have a working relationship with. Americans seem to get far more attached to their political parties then others do, and they often take criticism personally.
In case you're wondering though, they've dropped less-than-subtle hints they're in the anti-Bush camp. But I don't dare bring it up.
Hence the "we move to Canada", not "we move to Europe".
ReplyDeleteLOL! Honestly that's as much because I want to be near my family in the NYC area - and the fact that my dogs can't go on a plane - than anything else. I'd love to live in London.
So at first the choice was more geographical than anything else. Later, once I researched it more, I saw that Canada was a good fit for us in many other ways, too.
We all know it's an unwritten rule never to discuss politics with Americans that you need to have a working relationship with. Americans seem to get far more attached to their political parties then others do, and they often take criticism personally.
Absolutely! That's why the wingnuts scream "then why don't you just leave?!?!" every time an American liberal expresses the slightest bit of dissatisfaction with anything about the US! It's like a personal insult to them.
In case you're wondering though, they've dropped less-than-subtle hints they're in the anti-Bush camp. But I don't dare bring it up.
I can imagine that they desperately want you to know they are anti-Bush. Working on the weekends in a very toursity area, I meet European tourists all the time, and I always hope they see the anti-Bush and anti-war buttons on my backpack. It's silly, but I just want to be sure they don't associate me with any of that.
"Absolutely! That's why the wingnuts scream "then why don't you just leave?!?!" every time an American liberal expresses the slightest bit of dissatisfaction with anything about the US! "
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, when you say "OK fine, I'm leaving" it just pisses them off more.
True! Although they spit "Who cares, I'll help you pack, good riddance" with venom.
ReplyDeleteI guess we can't expect logic from wingnuts.